Vancouver Collective mirror problems that plague most SY collectives


Dear All ( Vancouver Collective and others)

This is part two of the two part email I have been writing with regards to many things and I will split this "PART TWO" into two parts, making a total of three separate posts because part two will no doubt be extremely long.
I'd like to begin part two by saying a few words. After that I will touch on the "nuances" that I left out of the conversation(s) I had with a yogi regarding the spreading of Sahaja Yoga, which was thought by this yogi to change the context of his responses, thus twist what he meant to make him look stupid, and cast him in a bad light. From there I will just continue with the many other things I want to share and express to the Vancouver collective and others, which were spawned from contemplation on another conversation with the very same yogi I had when I was called by him with regards to slandering the collective on this forum.

Firstly: (Vancouver collective). Im not sure if people are still opposed and angry with regards to what I have posted on this forum (as its been days since this all went down) or if people have read the "part one" of this two part email, but if anyone is still angry, then please ask yourself why. Is it because I have said something which is not the truth, which has not happened and is not happening currently, or because I have twisted the truth, over exaggerated the problems within our collective just to cast a bad light on the collective and side with a man you deem and many in the organization of SY deem off? Or rather, is it because you feel betrayed that someone from your own collective, who has eaten with you, talked with you, laughed with you and enjoyed your company has decided to air out the dirty laundry, and the innermost workings and issues of the collective to the public for all to see and hear? Basically what I mean is, is the real reason you are upset and angry is because you feel betrayed by me for telling private/personal collective matters to the public, thus making "our own business" very public and our problems very apparent; hence embarrassment? Please introspect and make sure any anger, hurt, or hostile feelings you may or may not have for me now because of what I have written is coming from a justified stance, rather then a challenge to the ego or feelings of betrayal. I say this because everything I have written over the months on this forum, as I have stated in part one, are all things I have personally experienced, seen and heard first hand. I have heard the same from other yogis and yoginis in the collective, so I know others have seen, heard and experienced the very same things, though maybe have not said it openly.

We need to be transparent in everything we do, thus making public- private issues. This is a collective and our personal problems affect the whole since we are all connected, both in a personal way and a collective way. If one half of a tree is diseased, then by keeping quiet and out of sight of the other side of the tree that does not stop that other side of that tree from falling prey to the very same disease; does it? In the same way collective problems must be made public because transparency (even in bad times and embarrassing situations) is part of what being truthful is all about. Truth and love is what Sahaja Yoga is about, and how can a movement of truth and love be successful if the very foundations, truth and love, are not being practiced even when no one is looking? With reference to the tree again, if the diseased side can be made well again, then the other disease free side or side that has yet to be overrun completely by disease can also be made well, thus saved. In that way we can lift each other up and out of the clutches of death and decay, but the process of lifting and escaping that `death' starts from inside our selves, and inside our own collective first.

More importantly, outsiders can see quite easily when something is not quite right, or not entirely out in the open, but rather hidden. This makes people feel there maybe more then meets the eye to whatever this person or organization is doing(in a bad way) and will most defiantly deter people from ever wanting to be a part of Sahaja Yoga. It will cast a doubtful eye on Shri Mataji and anything she says, because if they can see the people who are promoting it aren't living by what they are promoting or catch the `vibes' of whatever is going awry behind the scenes, they will listen to those `warning' signs within themselves and shy away from us. In the same way as we can sense intuitively if something seems a little `fishy', non realized souls can do the same even with no vibrations.

They may begin to search out SY and Shri Mataji online and at that point with the seed of doubt and uneasiness already sprouting, any critical scathing of Sahaja Yoga or "skeptic cult website", which we know are false but are out there to discredit ShriMataji, will immediately kill any lingering hope or doubtlessness, putting the nail in the coffin for us and that (those) seekers permanently. From there word of mouth sets in, and we all know word of mouth spreads like wildfire. That is not going to help us, nor is it going to help seekers or Shri Mataji, both in us and without us; is it? We will be defeated before the fight ever began.

And I will say that these collective problems are not problems that I can point fingers at from the outside and at people and say I'm all righteous and perfect and superior to you `guys'(the collective) because I'm not, and I do not think that I am. However, your problems are my problems and the world's problems, especially if they subtly influence my behavior in a negative way- by way of SY conditionings and because we are collective. SO if your suffering then I'm suffering, weather I'm there or not, and if you heal I heal. SO if I see something wrong and am aware of the way to correct that wrong and am aware of information which I want to make you aware of and to judge for yourself its authenticity, then I will do that. Why would you fault me for such?

With that I digress. Do not be mad but transparent, and under that light of day and in front of the eyes which are ever watching for signs of God at these End times , lets face ourselves and correct ourselves so we can correct and help others to correct themselves before its too late. As Shri Mataji has said "When Christ returns with his 11 forces of destruction, he is not going to be asking anyone to take realization. He will Just Sort out". Who do you think will be responsible for however many people are just sorted out without every having the knowledge and chance to ascend and escape eternal destruction by mother's request?? Fear, ignorance, lack of action, and lack of seeking the answers on one's own due to blind faith based on others words is not an excuse.

Now I would like to touch on the nuances I have been accused of leaving out which twisted the words of a particular yogi and the conversations I had with him where I quoted him as saying" we should not tell just anyone that Shri Mataji is God because it will scare them off." First I will say that all those quotes from my posts previously on this forum were not from one conversation, but from many conversations on the topic over months and from e mails, particularly one , in response to my suggestions that we need to start telling the truth abut Shri Mataji.

Basically it all started with an email I sent out to two or three people in my collective (one of which is this yogi) regarding spreading the truth up front and how the WCASY was corrupting the original message of SY by way of numerous quotes of messages posted on this forum and of Shri Mataji to back up that claim. It made the email quite a lengthy read.

I should say that before and leading up to this I had mentioned these things in brief with this yogi, and he defiantly seemed receptive to the idea and even said that he had been thinking that it is about that time for things to change, and that he had been thinking of beginning to do that at classes and other places. He did say however, that although he was told who Shri Mataji was up front himself and knew what Shri Mataji meant based on understanding the language(Hindi maybe??), it is not the same for other people and other people may become scared and that we should ease them into that knowledge by way of vibrations. Also that he was not sure he was comfortable with doing that, as it may be too much for some. That was fine.

Fast forward many months and many conversations which went much like the one above, maybe with the addition of "if YOU can do that then do that, spread it your own way". SO I sent the email to this person and two others in hopes that because they were in my age range, were respected by the `elders thus had some sway' and because they expressed openness to these ideas, that they would be the first ones to start change and bring this up. The message minus the lengthy forum quotes can be read on this forum by searching for message #5660. The email was sent and I only received two out of the three yogis responses. One said that she read it and that she simply thinks that each person has their own way of spreading SY. The other yogi said that he didn't have time or the desire to read such a long email, and thus never read it. It was also mentioned that he did not want to have any of the negativity from the posts on this forum regarding the "attack" against the WCASY in his attention and wanted to remain clear headed by avoiding any negativity at all.

At that point I didn't really bring it up again, but made sure that my thoughts on the matter and those conversations were written about, more so---so I could understand and ask if I was doing something wrong or perpetuating a wrong idea or something that was not suppose to be done. Also because I was very discouraged and could not understand why people did not want to step up to the plate or even listen to the `claims' I was making.

I didn't mention it to much to anyone at my collective after that until I was confronted on my supposed slandering of SY on this forum, where a phone call followed regarding my posts on here. So these are the supposed nuances I left and perhaps not repeating the same conversation that happened over many months, that all went the very same way as the example above. I don't see how that changes the context of his responses to the effect of not telling who Shri Mataji is upfront , or that she is God, which he said, because it would scare people off if they have not found that out through vibrations first, which would help them understand it on a deeper level. Going about it this way was explained to me as a we of softening the blow or possibly outcry of such a supposed preposterous claim.

So I will just go from here and touch on the rest of the points and questions/statements that were made in that recent phone call to me that I feel I need to express to understand the truths or untruths of them better and to simply talk of my collective experiences. Excuse me if the rest of this email is not a structured or coherent as the other parts.

I don't know where this idea that we are not supposed to tell the truth about who Shri Mataji is upfront came from. It doesn't make sense, especially after she has asked us to do and to prove that she is that---the Holy Spirit sent in the fathers name to give testament and remembrance to all Jesus taught and could not teach, and to comfort us/give us our second birth in the times before the end. The line that is always slung around is that Shri Mataji said to just give realization and let the vibrations work out that realization that she is the Holy Spirit. Another line that seems to follow is that Shri Mataji herself said that she doesn't want to be crucified for saying she is God on earth, so that is the guideline that is followed when spreading SY.

First of all Shri Mataji never said she was God. What Shri Mataji did say is that she is the Adi Shakti ( the Holy Spirit), not GOD, of which in the Sahastrara there is not a difference between her and him. Second of all, Shri Mataji did say that she does not tell who she is outright because she does not want to get crucified, but she did not say that we should not tell people outright who she is because she does not. Rather the exact opposite was said by her and I quote:

"I am the Adi Shakti. I am the One who has come on this Earth for the first time in this form to do this tremendous task . The more you understand this the better it would be. You will change tremendously. I knew I'll have to say that openly one day and we have said it. But now it is you people who have to prove it that I am that!"

Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi
Sydney, Australia — March 21, 1983


It is clearly seen that although she does not claim it outright herself for legitimate reasons, she has said it to us yogis and yoginis anyways so we understand, and that WE are the ones to prove that she is that. She does not have to prove that she is that, but we do. Even though, she herself has said at meetings and has said it on a Tv interview from the 80s, which I watched at a meeting at the local Guildford library in Surrey BC Canada. So to claim that we shouldn't tell people upfront is ridiculous, especially since that is the truth, and since Shri Mataji's SY is a movement of truth. How could you spread such a thing by concealing the very thing that it is based on?

Besides, we worship her as such in private, enjoying that knowledge for ourselves and that truth for ourselves, but when it comes time for us to share that joy, that understanding and that salvation which we have so unselfishly been given, suddenly that enthusiasm, that belief and that joy leaves out the open window. Why? Is it because we don't believe she is that enough to not care if people ridicule or doubt, or is it because we don't want to seem strange in the eyes of others, or is it because we are scared? If it is because we are scared, which I truly think it is, then why not ask ourselves why we are scared?

If it is because we are scared that people will run away screaming or ridicule us or not believe us thus never coming back, then we should no longer be worried about that because doing the exact opposite of what we have been asked to do has been producing the very same results as we have been trying to avoid in the first place. How could you be scared of an outcome that has already come to pass, and has been ongoing for many years? Fear of the unknown only can last as long as the unknown remains unknown. Its quite well known that hardly anyone sticks on to SY as its being presented now, so that fearful outcome is well known, thus fear of such should not be present in us, especially if our conviction in those facts about Shri Mataji are as strong as we make it to look like in private.

With that being said, then why not do what we were suppose to do; tell everyone The savior has come as promised by Christ, and that that savior is the Holy Spirit, who Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi is the incarnation of? If people run off they run off knowing the truth, and either way the outcome would be the same as it has been for years, the only difference is they will run off knowing the truth, which in the end is the point. So do you think people are going to know and understand that longing and what that longing and seeking really is all for(which is the longing to know the Devi, to be one with the Devi, and one with the self) if they aren't presented with the truth and answers to those internal inquires? I doubt people think that another yoga class will help them to find an end to that longing which they feel inside, which can only be satiated by the truth, by the spirit, by the Devi, which is completely removed from what we present to such fragile seekers who have usually tried 1001 gurus and yoga variation before finding SY. It makes sense then why that approach is not working.

I can say this because I know for myself that if I did not find out the truth about who Shri mataji was upfront by these websites and was presented with the facts to back up that claim, then SY by way of the official presentation would have been something I may have tried, felt nothing, and then left. The only reason I stayed on despite not feeling much even after a year almost in it(a year this October, though I have been reading these websites for almost 3 years)is because I know that it is not just a meditation, but a tangible connection to God and to heaven. Also because I know others who I introduced to SY who haven't paid any mind to it after the initial experiences and perusal of the official website. I had been to so many occult and esoteric gurus and healers who claimed miraculous things before finding these websites , and having all the scriptures backing up Shri Mataji and Jagbir's/his children's experiences proved to me that this was much more then any false guru and that it was indeed the truth, at least intellectual if nothing else. After many years of reading and re reading the sites I started SY and began to hear other puja speeches etc which totally corroborated the facts on Jagbir's web sites, and that's when I knew for sure that this was it. New comers don't have the benefit and if they feel nothing and the experience can't be explained to them in great detail and outside of a "wellness remedy", then why would they stay?

That brings me to my other point above; are we scared about losing seekers to fear (which makes no sense because we have lost so many that I have seen personally in less then a year even when not telling the truth)or are we scared that we won't be able to answer the questions that come up and no doubt will come up when we tell anyone that Shri Mataji is the Holy Spirit; as promised by Jesus and that these are indeed the end times as prophecies in many Holy books? It is scary when you don't know something that is being asked to be explained by you to someone else who may have more `knowledge' of something then you do. However, fear of the unknown is easily confronted and defeated by a very simple means; find out all that is known and needed to be known, and miraculously the unknown becomes the known and the fear that once reared its ugly head ceases to exist. It may seem like a daunting task to peruse all the Holy books and connect it all with what Shri Mataji has said, thus taking too long to be worth it. Luckily for us, Jagbir has done all that work for us by way of his websites, and as we study and until we know more, we can simply give people the website(s) address and even print material out from it to add to the regular material given out in class. Not only that, but we as well can get a firm grounding in much of it there. It also opens the door to the forum with many other amazing people and ideas and allows one to read the holy books on their own and gain a more in depth understanding of Shri Mataji and our own personal Journey. I'll get to Jagbirs websites later on.

As I was saying, the fear that arises in us from anticipating we will be confronted with questions we cannot answer is very real, but can be done away with. My close friend Gordon Stephens, who is not a realized soul, told me something a week or two ago when he suggested we go out and take photos together. He is an amazing amateur photographer, and we started at the same time. I was worried that I couldn't take pictures as good as him and because I bought a new camera that I didn't know how to work very well; those two together we to much for my egos need for pride and recognition. He Said something to me that had so much depth though it wasn't intended as such. He said that I should study everything I can about my camera and its settings, know it inside out, so that you are no longer fearful of not knowing how to use it to produce the best quality photos, but rather you become confident, capable, and able to handle anything that may arise that would otherwise prevent you from getting the shots you want. When one knows everything about something, then there is no fear in it because everything is known about it and you can handle anything very well. Sure unexpected things come up, but because you know the answers and how it functions based on reading and of course experiencing it, those situations are easily handled and compensated for. No only that but we have the Holy Spirit guiding us, so even extremely difficult situations will be taken care of because of that extra hand coupled with knowledge, which builds faith, which intern build unshakable confidence.

(I am in no way an expert or even close, but everything I have stated I am doing myself, studying myself and I am on my way to becoming the expert we have all been asked to become. It's a long journey but you have to start at some point)

That same thing applies to the spreading of Mother's Divine message. If we fully educate ourselves about how Shri Mataji's advent is prophesied in all the World's Great religions, how Jesus spoke of her among many others, how everything she has said about the kundalini, heaven, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Last Judgment an Resurrection, etc in the infinite amount of speeches she has given , any questions that will be asked by newcomers about how we know Shri Mataji is the HolySpirit sent to save us from ourselves, and about how this is the Last Judgment and Resurrection, can be backed up by facts that anyone can study and see for themselves it is true. That way we don't have to have this imaginary burden of worry about how we will be able to prove to others our beliefs are true, or wait out the years it will take for them to understand this on a vibratory level (which ill get to in a second)etc. Two birds with one stone, all in the name of truth and deep conviction. Not only that but when you read what mother has said and read the Bible for example, and see that it is indeed what has been proven and explained in great detail by Shri Mataji, you begin to have stronger faith in yourself and Shri Mataji, and it helps you focus on the importance of ascent and spreading the word in comparison to the worries of everyday life. For me at least, that has been a Godsend and the lynch pin preventing me from completely reverting back to my older, immoral, destructive self, which is still very much attempting to drag me back with it into my past on a daily basis.

I was told by a yogi that he was never interested in religion and never really believed in it. To the average Sy he didn't really see the purpose of learning about them and neither did I until I began reading more and more about it on here. Now I realize how important it is. In addition to everything else, How is it not when most of the Holy Books were written by the prophets and incarnations themselves, who we must accept for the kundalini to rise to Sahastrara , for us to grow and for moksha to be granted? By ignoring them or saying they are unimportant then we are saying we don't accept them, thus not accepting the deities and Shri Mataji Fully. How can we grow to our freedom? By reading the scriptures and understanding the deities better, God better, we strengthen our faith in ourselves, prove to ourselves it is really the Last Judgment and Resurrection and accept the deities as have been asked by mother. In no other way can we understand the deities FULLY or the times we are now living in, or for that matter the teachings of Shri Mataji without understanding what they have said about God and these special times. Without that understanding how can we explain it to others and answer their questions in a satisfactory manner.

"The main thing that one has to understand is that the time has come for you to get all that is promised in the scriptures, not only in the Bible but all the scriptures of the world. The time has come today that you have to become a Christian, a Brahmin, a Pir, through your Kundalini awakening only. There is no other way. And that your Last Judgment is also now."

Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi


Shri Mataji has said that we should become experts in the field of SY. That means become experts about "Spontaneous Union With The Divine", not about the subtle system alone or about SY- the organization. That sentence never held any weight or even crossed my mind after I read it, but now the depth and relevance of it has become apparent to me after many months in the collective and slowly finding out what is required of us by The Adi Shakti in comparison to what I have been doing and what I have seen others doing. If you take her words to mean experts about Sahaja Yoga, then what would you be becoming experts about? How to run an ashram? How to perform a Puja? . How to do clearing of the chakras? How to sing bahjans? How to decode the subtle system? IF that was the case, then we would all be experts after about 2-3 months in SY at most. Do you think the divine incarnated herself at all, but especially in such terrible times to teach us about how the subtle body works and how we can correct it to enjoy a more peaceful balanced life? If that was the case Shri Mataji would have finished her work in early 1971, as it doesn't take much more then that amount of time to learn all these external things. But no, She was teaching and giving such in-depth speech's for more then three decades, and from the ones I have seen, none of them mentioned pujas(even though they were at pujas, less then a mention of what puja it was and why it was auspicious) but rather such in depth information about every aspect of life and the after life, past, present and future, all of which is way over my head and probably will be for most of my life. Why would she give more then 2000 speeches to teach the subtle system and external rituals? It doesn't make any sense.

SO that must mean that being experts in SY means experts in everything that has to do with Spontaneous union with the divine, which mean we need to become experts at not ONLY how the subtle system works, but more importantly how to live dharmic lives, how the scriptures tell of these great times and of how they describe Shri Mataji as the Holy Spirit in these times, how this is the Last Judgment and Resurrection times, what that means, how it affects us, what is to come, and all the other countless things related to that and live them, thus teaching others how to live them as well. Daunting task yes, but it is fully achievable and will take a long time. However it is time well invested, both for self and for others, especially new comers.

Another thing id like to touch on is, who are we to decided who is ready to know the truth and who is not ready to know the truth? Who are we to think we can determine that for others, and even if we could, the truth is for all to be known, so who do we think we are in any case that we can decided when, if at all, it is the right time to tell people the truth and give them the opportunity to know God? That's like a priest, or the pope, standing in the way and also providing the only communication from God to you and vice versa. Silly. What if you never found out who Shri Mataji was at all? IF someone deemed you not ready and never told you the truth at some point? I doubt you would still be around at all meditating or anything of the like if you didn't know who Shri Mataji was. Do you see how scary that might be. You might have no been told and still on the endless quest to find satisfaction and answers, when you could have found those answers many years ago. How many people are still out there after a SY meeting looking for the answers they have not found? I don't want to think about it.

Letting vibrations work it out and/or letting newcomers find out who Shri Mataji is on a vibratory level of depth first is not going to work either. For one, not all people feel vibrations up front or for many months after due to their past actions in this life (I'm a prime example of that). Secondly how can the vibrations work it out if the significance of vibrations and what they are, are not elaborated on at all? Of course to elaborate and explain them would mean we would have to explain where they come from and why this lady in the photo is emitting them, which means we would have to explain who Shri Mataji is for them to be of any relevance. Self realization and music programs have no meaning unless the people know what it is and why that is important ; hence the scriptures. The reason bahjans are sung and enjoyed by us is because we are worshipping the Adi Shakti. Those songs have no meaning if their purpose for singing them and why we are singing them and to who were singing them are not known. They would be no different from other songs. The reason we love them and why they have meaning is because we know we are worshipping the goddess by singing them, hence they have meaning, hence power, hence vibrations. If we didn't know who Shri Mataji was, then the songs would just be enjoyable songs to be listened to, entertainment, that's all. Much like how it is to outsiders. In the same way vibrations and self realization has no meaning unless their importance, meaning and purpose is known fully and explain truthfully and fully as well. So how can just letting the vibrations work it out work if the person has no understanding of what vibrations are or what it is that is being or needs to be worked out. It makes no sence.

I would like to close this section off by saying that we should not be worried about weather or not people believe what we say about Shri Mataji and Sy, especially if we believe it so deeply ourselves, but rather focus our attention on learning everything we can about it and how it is backed up by all religions. That way we can explain it to new comers without our own fear of the unknown interfering, answer there questions fully and knowledgably, and allow them to think about the conversations we have had with them. It is not our job to convert anybody or persuade people to believe what we say about Shri Mataji, but rather to share this knowledge. It is also not our job to baby sit anyone through there ascent, or walk them along a path that only they can walk. They do however, need to be presented with all the facts to weigh for them-selves and understand, then they and only they can make a fully informed decision about whether or not what has been said is or is not the truth. They cannot be forced to believe so we should not be worried about whether or not they believe what we say, rather just be adamant that all the info regarding what we have said can be presented, backed up by what Shri Mataji has said, and let them judge for themselves. So why even worry about that or be afraid of that If even the Adi Shakti herself cannot force us against our will to believe what she has said or ask for self realization. IF She can't do that then neither can we, so lets just do our job and leave the rest to Shri Mataji and the individual person.

Before I go onto the second half of this email, I want to address something. In the conversation that is spawning all these replies and have had me thinking about this in depth and how I can better help facilitate change in myself and make other people I truly care for aware of the scope of Shri Mataji's incarnation, it was said to me that I making the Vancouver collective out, and I guess Sy's in general, to be doing something wrong. I would like to say that I apologize if it has come across in my posts that I am painting the Vancouver collective in a bad light and making it look as though they are doing something wrong. To be honest, that is not my purpose at all. However I would like to ask an open question to the collective and everyone else. That is, you may not be doing anything wrong, but how is inaction with regards to knowledge everyone should have by birth right, any different then doing something intentionally wrong? The knowledge is not ours to keep but only ours to share, even if we don't understand the depth of it all or all the teachings (which I certainly do not). Knowing that she is the Adi Shakti within and that she is the prophesied messiah and praising her in private shows that that belief has been established, so that knowledge is known and must be shared, especially when we have been asked repeatedly to do so. It is our duty to do so:

"Today, Sahaja Yoga has reached the state of Mahayoga, which is en- masse evolution manifested through it. It is this day's Yuga Dharma. It is the way the Last Judgment is taking place. Announce it to all the seekers of truth, to all the nations of the world, so that nobody misses the blessings of the Divine to achieve their meaning, their absolute, their spirit."

Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

So maybe nothing intentionally is being done wrong, but lack of action and duty is just the same, especially when countless people are searching for the knowledge that we already have and may destroy themselves in the process of that search, which could have been prevented if we shared this knowledge openly and outwardly from day one. How is that right?

I will end part two here and continue with the final part of this three part(now its three parts) email. Part three will continue where part two left off. I will post part three tomorrow( Saturday Aug 26) sometime.

Thanks for listening everyone.

Kyyan



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